Sleepers

Choke outs (20)

TxWrestle (43 platinum) 26.11.2017 21:49

In judo, Ezekial is "Sode Guruma Jime" (sleeve wheel choke) and doesn't involve grabbing your opponent's arm (wrist). It can be executed from the front or the back and has a north-south variation as well. I know a few places just call it "sode jime", but there are other chokes which can also go by that name, so it can be confusing.

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TxWrestle (43 platinum) 26.11.2017 21:43

We're both talking about the same move... I hadn't heard it called "snake choke" before, but it's the same as the cobra choke. The "clutch" term comes from pro wrestling, and I suspect "snake" is a Brazilian simplification of cobra. Anyhow, here's a video of a guy teaching it the way I'd do it from a mount position. Mind you it can be done from other positions as well... side or in guard. You'll notice that he slides his hand into position and doesn't grab his bicep. The Pereira video nicely demonstrates what I find to be the big difference between judo and BJJ in that his way is more brute force and less precision whereas Bane's technique seems very technical and much more judo like, although what he calls "Ezekial" I would consider to just be the cobra from a different angle. But either way, you'll have to admit that the move is effective.

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Chris in seattle (18 bronze) 26.11.2017 21:58

(In Antwort dazu)

Just to be clear, in my initial post this is what I was saying is ineffective:

As you can see the guy is passing out with no actual pressure on his neck.

I have not seen the knife edge finish to the snake choke so thank you for sharing. I was wondering, since you posted it, how I was supposed to get the leverage but, as always, changing the angle is the answer.

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TxWrestle (43 platinum) 26.11.2017 16:43

Actually the "cobra clutch" is a perfectly legitimate blood choke which when properly applied will knock out your opponent quite efficiently. I have been using it in judo, nogi sub and BJJ for decades. It is very uncomfortable for the recipient, and usually gets a quick tap out. Chris's description is not quite accurate as the arm that threads through the trapped arm does not grab any bicep, but slices in a controlled manner across the carotid artery. The pressure on the far shoulder compresses the opposite artery to some extent, but like a triangle choke or a darce, the primary pressure is only against one of the carotids. This makes for slower chokes, but they are still quite effective. BTW, historically, the Rear Naked Choke is not the same as the sleeper. The rear naked choke comes from judo (Hadaka Jime) and is applied with the hands grasping each other directly in front of the carotid while putting pressure on the artery. I have never seen the technique taught in a BJJ class (other than by myself) but it is one of the most effective rear chokes.

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Chris in seattle (18 bronze) 26.11.2017 20:53

(In Antwort dazu)

This is what I'm describing:

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Chris in seattle (18 bronze) 26.11.2017 19:35

(In Antwort dazu)

You seem to be describing an Ezekiel or box choke (sode jime in judo), not a cobra clutch

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wrestlerspig (13 gold) 26.11.2017 17:53

(In Antwort dazu)

I envy the lucky opponents who get put in your cobra clutch!

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bruizer2002 (2 bronze) 26.11.2017 04:35

What are the differences between the sleeper and the cobra clutch? Which one is more effective? Which one puts your opponent out faster?

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Chris in seattle (18 bronze) 26.11.2017 06:47

(In Antwort dazu)

The sleeper is the most common and is known as the rear naked choke which I've already covered. It's easy once you understand the mechanics and puts people out fast. The cobra as you see it in gay wrestling videos and pro matches is BS. There is a choke like the cobra clutch I did see once in a BJJ class, apparently the internet is calling it a snake choke. So from mount you would trap one of your opponents arms down with your chest, underhook their head and grab the wrist of the pinned arm. Then feed your other hand on the underhooked side (opposite the gripped wrist), grab your bicep and then drop your weight down on their neck bringing your raised elbow to the mat. You don't have much of a way to create tension on the wrist grip side so you're only able to close one artery. Mechanically this is likely more of a windpipe choke that can be damaging and uncomfortable so it will get the tap but I don't know that it would be an efficient blood choke so the KO would be slow and uncomfortable. From standing as you see it a lot of times in pro wrestling I'm going to call BS and say that it's not legitimate.

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Chris in seattle (18 bronze) 24.11.2017 06:57

So there you have it guys, my full technical on chokes. Feel free to ask questions and you may also message me privately for general grappling questions. It is a current goal of mine to do what I can to improve the technical level of the online wrestling community. If this has been helpful let me know, if it's pedantic and unappreciated let me know. I really only want to do this if it's actually helping people.

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Marcus825 (0 bronze) 24.11.2017 12:50

(In Antwort dazu)

Thanks man, thought that was great and very helpful How about the figure four choke/sleeper?.

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Chris in seattle (18 bronze) 24.11.2017 19:16

(In Antwort dazu)

I'm not sure what you mean, I covered both the triangle and rnc, both of which I've heard referred to as the fig.4.

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Chris in seattle (18 bronze) 24.11.2017 22:51

(In Antwort dazu)

So, the problem with this one is that if you look at the angle of the femur it has a slight angle into the hip on both sides if it's placed evenly. This angle places more pressure on the back half of the neck when you want it on the front have. If you look at your legs you will see that your thighs actually get wider in their hip side half as well, this exacerbates the issue. The primary part of the choke actually has to come from the back of the calf but you can see in this photo that the calf is going straight across the wind pipe. Going back to anatomical complications the top of your shin can't move closer to your hips because it's attached to your knee so you can only articulate the ankle side closer in. This limits how much squeeze you can get. You can even see in that photo that there is space behind the bent knee right where the artery is so there is no way that it can be effective as shown. Some people will tell you to bring your hips forward and back and the only way that might be effective is if you got your victims back flat on the floor, picked your hips up and used your weight to pull your calf in as you brought your chest forward. By anchoring your victim in the ground you are creating a point of leverage and by changing your position you are forcing the calf into the front of the neck so the finish will be more like a guillotine. There is going to be more neck crank to this method. Now, if you can get an arm into the hold you are filling up the space that is generally difficult to close in a fig 4 making it tighter. So, just as with a triangle choke or head and arm choke I will be using the shoulder to to close the space. Everything I'm saying is theoretical at this point and I would have to try it on someone to see what is effective so I would encourage you to work on it with someone who can give you live feed back. What would have to happen is that you will need to change your angle and the trapped arm may end up by the ankle lock or by the bent knee. You want the arm going across your victims face and you want your leg creating pressure on that shoulder driving it into the neck. So if the arm is near the bent knee the mid calf will likely be creating pressure on the other artery. I would be tempted to try grabbing the wrist of the trapped arm to keep it going across the neck and and then angling my hips out to finish. It's likely that you may not be able to get a good lock on your locked ankle. If the arm is trapped on the locked side you're likely going to want the lock closer to his midline. I might try to tuck the foot of the locking leg under his body and then try twisting my body like I'm doing a sit out keeping pressure on my lower hip to pin his shoulder. I want to rotate my upper body so that my upper hip drives down and into that locked shoulder and I may even bring my chest closer to the ground like I'm trying to smother him. This should drive his weight into my calf and then my hips would drive his shoulder into the other side. This is similar to the darce choke finish. Look into the Judo Sankaku Jime

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ARGONSA1 (154 platinum) 24.11.2017 08:41

(In Antwort dazu)

would love you to sleeper me out !

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Chris in seattle (18 bronze) 24.11.2017 06:54

Before I get into the last one I would like to add that if you want me to cover the Darce or arm triangle, or something else you are struggling with feel free to ask and I'll do my best. I will also state that I do not believe a standard straight headscissor is an effective way to choke someone out. I find that the pressure too often ends up on the back half of the neck on the muscle tissue. I do believe it can be done but it is certainly not efficient. Now if there was an arm in you can do a crappy triangle and for that you'll want to make sure their shoulder is going into their neck and you're pulling their head in deep. Likewise, headlocks aren't really that good for choking. A guillotine is a very good choke but for the purposes of this discussion I don't think it's a good one for choking someone for play because it can very easily be a wind pipe choke and you're not in a good position for feedback from your partner. Same goes for the box choke IE Ezekiel (which works better with a gi anyway).

So, for the head and arm choke. I usually set this up from scarfhold. I will use my hip to separate their arm from their body. If their arm is pinned tight to the top of their chest you may have to use your elbow or ribs to separate it. You want it as straight up as you can get it and from the elbow you want to push it across their face under their chin if you can. Now you want to pin it with the side of your head or if you can the base of your neck. From here you slide your leg back so you are face down next to them with their arm stuck up in the air. The arm not hooking their head is going to find your other hand and you want to clasp your hands palm to palm in a chain grip (finger tips curling into each other but not laced). Now you want to slide your head down so your ear is lined up with their artery. In most cases this is way lower than you think it is but with a big guy it might be higher. This is assuming your bicep of the arm going around their neck is putting pressure on their other artery already. You may have to go back a few steps and adjust that arm. So if both their shoulder via pressure from your head and your bicep are pressing in on the arteries evenly all you have to do is move your hips away from them 15-45 degrees (no more than 45 degrees or the hold will loosen), and squeeze a little bit. If you're using a lot of muscle your positioning is wrong. This is a good one to practice a lot to get your positioning right and you want to practice on a lot of guys of different sizes. I didn't have much of a problem getting this one right and I submit people with it all the time and have had guys go out on me. It is a lot of practice, instinct, and feel but those can be developed and once they are this is one of your most effective high percentage chokes. The Darce is right up there too but it's significantly more technical.

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Chris in seattle (18 bronze) 24.11.2017 06:34

Triangle chokes are all about positioning. I even went to a school in central Maine and we were working triangles and my partner was a brown belt and he was tapping while I was still setting it up and he asked me how I was finishing it without pulling on the head. I was shocked!

To set up a good triangle (in this example we'll be approaching it from guard but you can get to it from mount, knee ride, sitting on a person's chest, and even if you're stuck in someone else's side control) you want to clear one of your opponent's arms either with your hand or with your knee (how to do that is better explained in a video and not relevant for our purposes in this discussion). On the same side you want to kick your leg as high as you can. You can do this most effectively (in my opinion) by putting the other foot on your opponent's hip (bringing your knee tight to his body so he can't pull the arm you want in the triangle out), bridging as high as you can, then you want to pivot your hips so that when you bring your calf down it goes perpendicular to your opponent's neck and drop your hips down. You want to be heavy with that calf and strong in the flexion of your knee so that your op's posture gets broken down with your weight. From here you can lock your other leg over your ankle, don't worry about it being perfect yet, you just don't want him getting away. Now you want to bridge again as high as you can and guide his arm over your body so it goes across your body and when you bring your hips back down his arm will be trapped between your quad and floating ribs. Now grab the shin of the leg over his neck and fix your lockdown. The ankle of the leg going over his neck should be flexed as much as possible, pulling your toes back to your knee. Now you can bring the other leg back and re-lock, making sure your ankle is trapped behind the bend of the knee. If your ankle is down by the calf of you're locking leg you will not be able to finish. Now move the ankle of your locking leg away from your opponent's body. If you, as you are reading this want to, triangle your legs now, and see what happens when you do this. By rotating the leg the quads are pushed into the neck, closing the space even further. Now, underhook your opponent's side opposite of the locked side, and pull your head to their knee. You should be almost perpendicular to them now. I usually have people tap long before I get to this point! If your lockdown is super technical they may go out before you get to the last steps. If you get to this point and they are still with you and not tapping take your free arm and pull their head down and I guarantee you, if all this is correct they will go out fast.

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Chris in seattle (18 bronze) 24.11.2017 06:20

For a rear naked choke, commonly referred to in pro circles as a sleeper hold, is probably my favorite for it's simplicity and comfort. The three common mistakes I see is that people flex their biceps (crushing the windpipe), they arch back away from their victim (diverting pressure from the neck into the jaw), and they put their hand on the top of the head (allowing the victim a path out of the hold).

If you have taken a person's back you have a pretty good position which is difficult to escape. You can use one of your legs to clear one of your victim's arms out of the way giving you less to contend with when sinking the hold. You want to make sure your arm makes it completely under the chin. If you're caught on the chin there is no choke and your partner may not forgive you for crushing his teeth out. Make sure your elbow points straight down their sternum with their chin straight ahead in the anatomical position. This is the best position. You will see MMA fighters all the time with their forearms across the front of the neck, and if you're competing at that level go ahead, but if you're doing this for fun be nice to your partner. From here cuddle into your partner like you're trying to listen to their heart through their shoulder. Your under the neck hand should be holding your bicep with the forearm of the other arm pinching your hand in place. The hand of the locking arm goes behind the head and as close to behind the neck as possible. From here relax your choking arm and bring your elbows together as you push your shoulders heavier onto your partner's shoulders. If you have to you can use the arm behind the neck to push down, bringing the neck deeper into the elbow. Some people take a deep breath and puff out their chests or roll their shoulders back like you're setting your shoulders for an upper body exercise, I have found neither to be helpful. If you find your partner coughing a lot calmly try adjusting your technique and find what works best for you. Once you start closing up that space it should take a few seconds for them to go out. If it takes more than 15 seconds you're doing something wrong. Even 10 seconds is a bit long. If they don't come around in 20 seconds you should be actively trying to find out why (you have CPR training if you're choking people out, right?).

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Chris in seattle (18 bronze) 24.11.2017 06:07

I did a couple posts like this on the subject of bodyscissors in the bodyscissor group and a lot of guys seemed to really appreciate it and one guy not so much so here we go. This is going to be a moderately long form post on my thoughts on chokes. Before I get into it I will say that I am coming at this from the perspective of who I am which is a BJJ blue belt who happens to love choking and getting choked.

So, without any judgement on my part I would like to start out with safety (I could hear you groan as I typed the word). I would like to begin with understanding the physiological effects choking has on your body. Some people think that it's about controlling breath, it's not, I can choke you out all the way without you missing a single breath, in fact, if the airway closes people jerk and cough and probably have significantly less fun. If you want to restrict breathing, cover the airway. A good choke closes the carotid artery so blood can't get too the brain. After 10 minutes of restricted blood to the brain the brain is officially dead (more or less). Between first restriction and death there is a lot along the way that could lead to death including aneurysms, stroke, respiratory arrest, cardiac arrest, damage to the neck structures, and asphyxiation. Any one of these can happen in an instant and no choke is 100% safe. Even the act of choking someone could break a partial blood clot in the neck loose leading to a stroke scenario. R.A.C.K: Risk Aware Consensual Kink, right? Certain practices can increase these risks such as repeated choke outs (the risk factors are cumulative especially for cardiac arrest), flexing the biceps into the neck (puts more lateral pressure on the larynx increasing the risk of damage), slow choking (causes more venous build up increasing pressure in the cranial circulatory system increasing the risk of petichiae and aneurysms), hang choking (neck fractures and larynx damage).

Because of the addictive nature of choke scenes and the tendency to push the envelope the longer you're doing a choke scene I feel it's best to save choke and choke out play till the very very end. I've been there, I know how the desire to take it too far builds and builds. I think it's better to take someone quickly to the edge of going out or taking them out than to do a long or multiple choke outs. That being said, I am not a medical professional, I just have my experience and have done quite a bit of research.

In BJJ there are more ways to choke someone out than I can possibly cover here in a reasonable amount of time so I'm going to stick to the more comfortable chokes.

The surface area of the limb doing the choking makes a very big difference. The great thing about chokes from a self defense stand point is that a little guy can choke out a huge guy just as easily (from a mechanical stand point) as he could someone his own size. Any closure of the arteries will lead to a person going out. Small limbs can do this more comfortably for the person being choked out than larger limbs because larger limbs displace more blood from the neck into the head increasing cranial pressure and congestion making headaches, petichiae, and other complications more likely.

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